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The Metamorphosis vs. The Stranger
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rwilliams

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Date Posted: Sep/24/2003 3:55 PM
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Which novel gives the best, most convincing portrait of isolation and alienation, in your opinion? Why? What are the causes of said alienation? Which novel is truly "literature," according to the Eagleton definition?

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DGSandman

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Date Posted: Sep/24/2003 6:12 PM
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I think that that the Metamorphosis gives the most convincing portrait of isolation and alienation because Gregor is really outcasted by his own family, which to me is more distinct than Meursault's isolation from society because he is really voted guilty by a jury of people he doesn't know. They both have strong views of isolation and alienation, because both Meursault and Gregor are viewed as monsters of society, Gregor, for the obvious and visible reason that he became a giant roach, but Meursault is isolated because his existentalist views made him look like a monster to society because he didn't show any emotion. However, because of the fact that Gregor's own family abandoned him, while Meursault's gf came to visit him and was concerned about him and came to visit him and said they would get married, seemed more sincere than when Greete tried to feed him and wouldn't even look at him and then later betrayed him by saying something to the effect that she wouldn't even say her brother's name infront of this monster. The causes of the alienation like I said was only because of the fact that he outwardly appeared like a monster, while clearly mentally he was still Gregor, which I think Kafka tried to represent in the first few pages when he made Gregor seem more worried about being late for work and getting to work, which are everyday normal things, which I think was trying to show that mentally he was still the same. As for which book is truely literature. I don't think you can say that one of these books is more rightly to be called literature, because as Eagleton said, society determines what literature is and obviously these books are both literature, otherwise we wouldn't be reading it in our Literature class.

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DGSandman

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Date Posted: Sep/24/2003 6:12 PM
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Sorry i rambled

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Kary

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Date Posted: Sep/25/2003 11:13 AM
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I believe that The Metamorphosis focused more on the theme of alienation because Gregor was alone most of the time wiht no one to talk to, even if he wanted to. Meursault at least had Marie and people who were willing to talk to him. With Meaursault people tried to gain his affection and emotions (Marie) but with Gregor, people just took adavantage of him and even if he hadn't alienated himself, he would still have been alone. I think that The Metamorphosis is more "literature" because there was more imagination and creativity throughout the novel than in the Stranger.

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KYee

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Date Posted: Sep/25/2003 4:02 PM
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Personally, I think that both books The Metamorphosis and The Stranger are equally convincing portrait of isolation and alienation. In both books, the main characters, Meursault (Stranger) and Gregor (Metamorphosis) suffered from isolation and alienation from society and friends/family. In The Stranger, Meursault alienated himslef from society by being an indivual who chose not to show emotion and in the end, he indivuality screwed himself. The trial which Meursault was founded guility was society vs. indivuality and for that he dies. The trial on which Meursault was put on and founded guilt was planning the death of his mother. Somewhere in the book were "Preplanned" shows up refers to the death of his mother meaning putting her in a home and leaving her to died, not the Arab who he shot in self-denfense. With the people that were called for trial,they were mostly from his mom's funeral except for Marie and Raymond. With Marie the trial made her look like a cheap whore who sleeps with Meursault after his mom just died. And with Raymond, he said that Meursault was a nice guy but not why he was a nice guy and Raymond never visted him in jail so his friend was not really his friend. In Metamorphosis, Gregor was isolated and alienated from society and his family before and after his transformation. His family never loved him even when he was human. To them, he was the source of money they needed to pay off their debt so they don't have to work yet they are capable themselves. Although Grete was stuck in between but in the end she went with society. The only reason that The Metamorphosis seem more convincing is that Gregor's own family rejected him. Our current society that we are living in shows a loving family that loves us unconditionaly unless the deed was pretty extreme but the point is that there's love there. With Gregor, his parents didn't have that unconditional love at all. With Grete until her metamorphosis, she didn't think that blood was thicker than water meaning that she rather be with the in crowd than to accept his brother no matter what he looked like. After Gregor's transformation, all he cared about was being late for work. He didn't care what happened to him. To me it seem like that the point of Gregor's life was to work like a worker ant or bee to support the colony, and when his life purpose was gone, there is no point to live anymore. Both novel is literature, in Eagleton definition, literature is cultural, creative, and make the reader see what they didn't notice before. Both books suggested the absurdity of life / how if your life isn't what society shows it to be than it isn't worth living.

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Drew

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Date Posted: Sep/25/2003 5:34 PM
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I think the Metamorphosis portrays a better concept of isolation and alienation Gregor’s appearance is already alienation. Gregor is isolated from society due to his new transformation. Society rejected his roach appearance by avoiding him. Especially his family, they put him in a room and feed him the leftovers. They are just trying to get as far as possible from him, thinking he’s dangerous. The Strangers deals more with denial than isolation like the Metamorphosis. Even those denial is sort of isolation but Gregor is isolated both by society and himself by being in the state of denial. Both novels are literature because they represented their time period.

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AH86

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Date Posted: Sep/26/2003 12:26 PM
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In my opinion, The Metamorphosis gives the most convincing portrait of alienation, whereas The Stranger gives the most convincing portrait of isolation. In the metamorphosis Gregor is alienated by his family(society) because of his physical change. Gregor is still the same person mentally and emotionally, but because now he is physically a vermin (or roach) he is not accepted by society. The Stranger had a better example of isolation because the main character Mersault chose to distance himself from society. The causes of alienation are society and it's values. The novel that is truly "literature," according to Eagleton, I think are both The Metamorphosis and The Stranger. They both have "social-ideologies."


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Only1ADRI

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Date Posted: Sep/26/2003 12:33 PM
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The metarmorphosis gives the most convincing form of alienation due to the change in behavior that the character experienced with his family. the fact that his family alienated him completely due to his external appearance proves that the author was trying to correlate the situation to society thus it is considered literature. Gregor definitely went through alienation since he experienced the five stages of grief. In the end it was the lack of love (alienation) that drove him to his death.

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Ash29

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Date Posted: Sep/26/2003 5:25 PM
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I think that, The Metamorphosis gives the most convincing portrait of alienation, whereas The Stranger gives the most convincing portrait of isolation because george has been alienated from the society and from his family whereas meursault isolated himself from the society and his family. I think that the cause of alienation is your moral vaules and society. I think both of the novels are "literature" according to the Eagleton definition because as eagleton said literuture reflects our society values and both of the novel do that also have creativity throught the novels.

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Me2004

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Date Posted: Sep/27/2003 8:28 AM
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Both novels has alienation and isolation. But I think that Metamorphasis gives the most convincing protrait of isolation. The isolation starts as soon as Gregor turned into a bug. His family didn't even try to love him. They just totally want to get rid of him. They ignored him in the rest of the novel. In Stanger, Meursual got alienated most of the novel, but not isolated. He has Marie and people to talk to, whereas Gregor has no one. That's why i think that Metamorphosis contained most convincing protrait of isolation. Both of them are literture, because they both contain imagination .

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coco

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Date Posted: Sep/27/2003 8:51 AM
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In my opinion, I think that the metamorphosis's gives the most convincing portrait of isolation and alienation because his alienation was brought on by something completely out of his control. It was never his idea to turn into a cockroach and therefore be alienated from his family and confined to his room because of the disgust that his family has for him. In the metamorphosis you can see this very clearly. In the stranger, he is isolated but that is more or less his choice until the end when he is sentenced to die, so you don't really feel like he is isolated and alienated until the end because in the beginning it's his choice to be alone. Now, as to which novel is considered literature, I think that both of the novels can be considered literature because they are both creative and imaginitive. They also reflect society. The metamorphosis's tie with society is reflected in Gregor's responsibility to his family. In the beginning of the novel, instead of him worrying about how he got transformed into a giant cockroach and how he was going to turn back into a human, he was more worried about trying to get to work and not losing his job so that he could pay off his family's debt, mainly his father's. In the stranger, society's values are very apparent during Meursault's trial. In his trial, he was more or less found guilty not because he shot an arab, but because he didn't cry at his mother's funeral. This goes to show how society believes one should act and how according to society, one has to have emotions towards everything.

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Candy_Cane_Child

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 5:55 PM
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bah,
lets see...i personally think that both novels contain excellent arguments to show true isolation and alienation, so...let me flip a coin
metamorphasis - heads

the stranger - tails

is the stranger no stranger to winning and luck? or is the metamorphasis with it's puny less pages goin' to come out on top?

place your bets now

.............


!!!BONZAI!!!

heads wins two out of three
well, the metamorphasis shows true isolation and alienation because his family were the ones that isolated and alienated him, not like in the stranger where society alienated him, and he cared less. also in the metamorphasis gregor was isolated and alienated because of his appearence not like the stranger where meursault was persecuted for what he thought and believed. gregor could not help or change what he looked like, while meursault stood by his beliefs throughout the whole novel, meaning meursault had a choice to be removed from alienation but he stood by his thoughts, gregor had no ability or opportunity to change. Finally meursault had friends that stood by him to the end while gregor was being let down by each and every family memeber that could help him in his unfortunate state.

 Message edited by: Candy_Cane_Child on 09/28/2003 20:21:18

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canito51

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 7:27 PM
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hello

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canito51

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 7:29 PM
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sorry im late


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canito51

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 7:29 PM
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sorry im late


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canito51

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 8:03 PM
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In my opinion, The Metamorphisis portrays the theme of alienation better simply because unlike Meursault he did not choose to live in isolation but encountered it in everyday life. In the Metamorphis Gregor is seen as the scapegoat of the family, simply being used for the money he brings in. From the start we see the Gregor is treated differently by the family as well as on the job. We have this feeling that Gregor attempts everything to be accepted, but never receives the appreciation he deserves. Just when you think things couldnt go any worse Gregor wakes up one night to discover he has turned into a bug. Then author Franz Kafka takes the theme of alienation to an even higher level. We see how Gregors family panicks because they will be unable to pay off debts and rent without Gregors income. Once they see Gregor wont return they simply kill the creature not thinking of Gregor himself. The isolation Gregor experiences when a bug is tremendous. At first his sister Marie takes him food for a while but soon gets tired of it. Gregor was helping his father pay off a debt, yet at the end it was he who handed Gregor his death. Gregor never chose to isolate himself, instead tried to get closer to people who in reality simply used him. In the Stranger Meursault is a brilliant example of isolation because he chose to be isolated and at the end was convicted by society for not being at his mothers funeral. Both are literature becuase of there appeal to society and the creativity of portraying similar themes.

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Candy_Cane_Child

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 8:22 PM
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you made a double post! foolish boy!

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DGSandman

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 8:59 PM
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CANDY CANE CHILD, THAT'S HILARIOUS!!!!!

Whatever happened to bonzai? Did they already cancel that show? If you think about it this forum is sorta like the show, so I like your use of the show, to answer the question. because if you think about. Ms. Williams is like Lady One question. She's asks us one question and then sees how long it will take us to answer, and how long our answers our, so it's like a perfect parallel. he he he.

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DGSandman

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 9:09 PM
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BETTING ENDS!!!!!!!!!

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Candy_Cane_Child

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Date Posted: Sep/28/2003 9:11 PM
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well lady one question only asks one question

hense her name

but ms. williams asked two questions this time

lady two questions?

and then again, she never responds like lady one question

!!!!!!!!!BRING BACK BONZAI!!!!!!!

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